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All I want is an app that can fix the "broken window" focus management. Like when I click a window, Mac OS brings to top all windows of the respective app, and when an app (say, Finder) has no window open currently, bringing it to front also unaskedly manipulates the stacking order such that other app's windows become the top most one, completely destroying the visual context. Also, back in the days I used Expose a lot to navigate, but it has completely lost any spatial determinism and usefulness for me. These issues are very noticable, and feel gross and like a team of ignorants has messed around; it's very irritating that nobody is speaking about it.


I believe the app “Front and Center” solves this: https://hypercritical.co/front-and-center/


It seems so, but what the Front and Center app serms specifically created for is switching towards the undesired behavior of bringing all windows to the front on click when that is exactly what my OS does and what I want to get away from. :confused:


Fyi, i'm not sure if it does what you want, but make sure to check out 1Piece. It has a ton of options...

https://app1piece.com/


Thanks! That's an instant purchase for me. Looks like the APIs to permit this have only been available since Ventura.


I just want a Finder that actually works. It’s pretty incredible just how bad Finder is. It’s by far the worst piece of software I’m forced to use on a daily basis.


I use Forklift instead : https://binarynights.com/

I can use it as an orthodox file manager (with the f keys I remember from Norton Commander). I also like using it to access remote filesystems over nfs and sftp, and also S3 buckets. It also works well with Dropbox and iCloud. There is a great sync feature to keep source and target directories synchronised. It's also good for diffing directories at a glance. It's good at managing archive files too. Plus the regex file rename feature is often handy for me - I have a few presets saved for various purposes. It's also my go-to MacOS uninstaller, as it gathers the related files.


Same. I tried to use Finder for a while but landed on Forklift. I consider it the best choice of file manager tools for MacOS.


What exactly is so bad about Finder? I've never had any issues with it.


Things that are hard: launching a terminal at a location, viewing or copying a files path, navigating a deep file system, column width in the column view, searching for files, finding file info, and lots of other.


> launching a terminal at a location

Right-click on directory > Services > New Terminal at Folder.

> viewing or copying a files path

Right-click on directory or file and press Option > Copy "<filename>" as path name.

> navigating a deep file system

Not sure what you mean.

> column width in the column view

Option + click & Drag. Or do you want them to adjust to files/folders name length?

> searching for files

What's wrong with Command + F?

> finding file info

Do you want more than what is shown by Command + I or in the "details" column?


> Right-click on directory > Services > New Terminal at Folder.

Note that you can also bind a hotkey to this! And in general in macOS, you can a bind to a hotkey to any menu item in any application.

Search "keyboard shortcuts" in settings, then under Services -> Files and Folders.


except Excel's ribbon menu items. As far as I know there's no method to hotkey those like ALT+[<letter>] on windows. Same for Outlook's categorize email function.


That's because Microsoft has never used Apple's SDKs for their window widgets...


Those are not "menu items" as generally understood in macOS.


To add to this:

cdf: aliased to cd "$(pfd)"

Doesn't really open a new Terminal, but usually, that's not what I want to happen anyway.


pfd is not standard and is doing all the work---what is it?


In the column view, adjusting to the file/folder name length is easy. Just double click on the column divider.


With the Alt key, that adjusts the width of all columns.


> searching for files

Erm, what ?

I use Mac, Windows, Linux and BSD daily.

Of all four, searching for files on a Mac is a dream.

Apple Spotlight is and always has been lightyears ahead of whatever garbage Microsoft use on Windows.

And don't get me started on the inconvenience of searching for files on Linux or BSD, I mean, for starters you have to download a non-default tool like `fd` if you want to search at any reasonable speed.


This just tells me you've never used they only file search dream - Everything search, unfortunately Windows only. Spotlight has never come close to that


> Everything

I was going to say Everything was awesome as a file searcher except for its non-easily searchable name.

But when I checked in a raw Edge instance it was in fact the first result. Ho hum.

It's produced by Voidtools in case YMMV: https://www.voidtools.com/downloads/


> Apple Spotlight is and always has been lightyears ahead of whatever garbage Microsoft use on Windows.

I certainly agree on that, and I also find it more convenient than the desktop search options I’ve tried on Linux (there I usually drop to the command line to search).

But despite really wanting to like Spotlight, e.g. its integration with Apple Mail with email previews is great, I find it unusable for heavy work. I’ve tried customizing it to disable lots of search backends that I don’t need, but still for reasons I don’t understand, it sometimes takes 5+ seconds to process my search results before showing anything, and even the average search often takes a second and is not well-sorted.

In comparison, Alfred is always instant at searching on my computer, and I really prefer how you can explicitly tell it what you are searching for (e.g. `'filename`, `in file contents`, `=math`, etc.) whereas Spotlight tries to guess this and often guesses wrong. It’s also easier to customize if you want to integrate e.g. specific web searches in it.

I’ve tried Raycast since lots of people praise it, but I still find Alfred to have a nicer and more responsive interface, but perhaps it’s just what I’m used to.


I think something is wrong with your Spotlight index if it takes that long. Recently something went a bit funny with my Spotlight that made it take as long as you're describing, but after a reboot it's pretty instantaneous as usual. I work with large numbers of files (tens of thousands per project, with about 40-50 projects) so I don't think it can be that. I'm pretty sure there are ways to rebuild your Spotlight index.

I haven't come across issues with ordering, but my use cases are usually pretty simple, so that might be down to a difference in our workflows.


I agree with OP, searching for files is awful. Many times it doesn't find a file I know it is inside a subdirectory of where I am right now.

Things got much better when I moved from Spotlight to Raycast.


Searching on my Mac's SSD is great.

Searching on my SMB network share doesn't work. At all. It's not just that Spotlight won't index it. It's that you can't even search by filename within the current folder you're viewing.


> launching a terminal at a location

A workaround for this (especially if you have a terminal always open) is to drag the file/folder you want to operate on into an open terminal window, which will paste in its path.


This is what I do as well. Note that nearly every MacOS app shows a file or folder icon in its title bar if you hover the mouse over it – this icon can be dragged into a terminal to open the current file or folder there. Also useful if I e.g. want to grep something in a currently open text file in the terminal, or something like that.

(There is a system setting to always show this in the title bar without hovering, which was the old default behavior before Big Sur if I recall correctly. I’m a bit annoyed that it’s now hidden away by default.)


Also, remember the commands pbcopy and pbpaste which along with pipes allow one to do a myriad of tasks.


At least it has a column view.


- Awkward sorting by name (mixing folders and files), unless you change the default

- Does not snap files to a grid by default on icon view, leaving some folders looking like a mess

- Not possible to figure out what's the exact path of the open folder - I just want a full path in the header/title bar. Or let me copy the full path without having to open "get info"


> I just want a full path in the header/title bar

Apart from the Path bar in the bottom, there is also an old school title bar method:

  defaults write com.apple.finder _FXShowPosixPathInTitle -bool true
  killall Finder
("false" for reversing it.)

It doesn’t work for great for tabs, though, because tabs are short and paths are long.

> Or let me copy the full path …

There are some alternative fun and old methods:

* If you're hovering over the title bar of a finder window there is a little folder icon, the so-called proxy icon which gives access to the current folder. One can drag and drop it and it moves the folder. Dragging a folder or the proxy icon on the Dock icon of Terminal or iTerm opens a new window with the working directory directly set to the folder. But dragged into a text field you're getting the text path. Right click gives you a dropdown for navigation in the current folders path.

The proxy icon was stable in Finder until recently, now you need to hover. But you can re-activate the permanent display of the proxy icon under System Settings → Accessibility → Display, I think.

* MacOS has, since the Next days, the concept of Services. Services are little actions which the System and (good) Apps can provide to do something with with something. Services are found in the context menu or the App menu. If you're right clicking on a folder (sadly not the proxy icon), there are Service Actions by Terminal and iTerm for opening a window or tab for a selected folder.

* AppleScript:

  tell application "Finder"
      if exists window 1 then
          set currentDir to POSIX path of ((target of front Finder window) as text)
      else
          set currentDir to POSIX path of (path to desktop folder)
      end if
      set the clipboard to currentDir
  end tell
It works in Script Editor at least. I'm not an AppleScript expert.

But you can use AppleScript everywhere in MacOS. The Script-Menu, as an own App, as an Automator action or a Shortcut, you can give those hotkeys, possible use them in Alfred or Raycast, etc.

Apart from the syntax it will be a sad day, if Apple retires the AppleScript architecture.


A few years ago I found+installed a small, simple Service to run "touch" on a file, but it broke a few OS upgrades ago. Anyone got a replacement ?


Once there was a nice app called ThisService which could convert shell scripts into services, but it is not developed anymore.

The modern equivalent is "Run Shell Script" in Shortcuts or maybe Automator. Shortcuts has the advantage that you can use your shortcut directly in Quick Actions in Finder's context menu.

I played around a minute and created this but I'm not a Shortcuts expert.

https://www.icloud.com/shortcuts/5898ff4c3f2e49ff8ec6bff4013...

One insane caveat: For this to work you'll need to grant Finder Full Disc Access in System Settings → Security. Yes, it sounds insane. It is. But it works.


Guess what! In the security dialog, when I get a file picker to pick the app, Finder is not in the list !


Oh, and you can drag app icons into the Finder symbol bar. Possibly an App made from that AppleScript. Not tested.


Thanks for the tips. The defaults command worked well for my needs.


Sounds like you want "Show Path Bar" (in the View menu), though it lives at the bottom of the window not in the header.

The sorting by name criticism is a weird one to me though. You want it to not sort by name when you tell it to sort by name, and instead sort by file vs folder and then within those two groups sort by name?


I should have paid more attention to the menu bar. Show Path Bar helps with my needs.

For sorting I want it to sort like File Explorer or Dophin. So folders on top (sorted by name), then files (sorted by name). It works if I change Settings > Advanced > Keep folders on top.


Sorting folders seperately is definitely a personal preference thing. This behavior drives me nuts in Explorer and Linux file managers.

I’d support this being an option in the View menu or View Options palette, but I think I would lose my mind if this behavior were made default with no way to turn it off.


Same, honestly. I find it very pleasant to use. Especially compared to a lot of Linux file browsers


It never seems to receive focus when I'm expecting it to


Yes, I was thinking the same.. For several years, I'm pretty happy with PathFinder by Cocoatech: https://cocoatech.io/

The things I miss the most when I accidentically open a Finder window: Cut files wit CMD+X to move them (never understood this when coming from Windows), cycle the files in a folder (start on top if you reach bottom and vice versa) and the comprehensive info bar on the right for files and folders. Give it a try :)


Instead of CMD + X you can do CMD + C and paste with CMD + Option + V


I used it for years and got so fed up with its pain points, including frequent crashes, a licensing system that never worked and nagged me despite legitimate purchase, and updates which reset and lost my preferences and sidebar organization. I’m now galaxy brained back to Finder again.


There's an app from Sindre Sorhus that adds CMD+X functionality to Finder.

https://sindresorhus.com/command-x


”There is an app from Sindre Sorhus” is a complete sentence. :)

(Command-X is nice, even for a long time Mac user)


I always feel like I'm missing something, but I find the creation of new folders really awkward. I'd like to just be able to right-click on a folder or even on a file or between two files and have it create a new folder there. But the new folder option is not available in those cases. I have to go to File->New Folder or click on the empty bottom of the screen, create the new folder there, and then drag it. Would love to hear if someone can offer tips for this.


Command-Shift-N


Thanks but that doesn't really solve any of the issues. It still just creates a new folder on the bottom instead of the current selection.


I recommend Alfred to replace Finder, Divvy for window management, iTerm2 for terminal, and homebrew to manage CLI utils.

This combination has served me well for many years.


And Linux Mint Cinnamon to replace MacOS ... how bout that?


OT. I like Linux, but this thread is about macOS.


you're in denial.


The frustration with Finder led me to building my own tool. Not trying to replace Finder but more like a companion app - https://www.fileminutes.com/


I've been using Pathfinder for years (https://cocoatech.io/)


I honestly think that Explorer on Windows 11 is way worse than Finder. But I'd love a FilePilot [1] for macOS...

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43091466


On Windows you have Total Commander at least :)

I've tried some clones for mac os, but they all missed some important (at least to me) functions. Like typing not going to the command line editor, or not having a command line at all.

So it's midnight commander from macports for most complex file operations for me.


Anyone who thinks finder is the worst file browser hasn't used Windows for 25+ years. Explorer can't even search files on the hard drive of the computer it's running on.

Explorer has its thumbnail processor on the same thread as the UI so if you have a lot of pictures in a directory it'll just hang indefinitely. Sometimes if you have too many files it won't display any at all.

If explorer crashes, it's the same process as your desktop and taskbar, so that disappears too.


I’ve never really understood the love for Explorer in any of its iterations. It was just alright at its best in the Win7 era and somewhere between mediocre and bad in other eras.


I think peak Explorer was like back in Windows 98. Snappy and easy to use. With Windows 7 it became a mess with the ribbon thing. On Windows 11 it got even worse, it's slow.


For the shit people give Finder, it's astonishing how bad Explorer is.

I miss Finder's tree view in Explorer so much.


i mean ... is it possible to move a file? the context menu doesn't seem to have a corresponding entry.

currently have a weird situation where a bunch of folders are arranged horizontally and go beyond the right border of the window. but there is no horizontal scroll bar indicating that.

the windows xp/nt/2000 file explorer is the pinnacle of file exploring experience. basically every linux file explorer just more or less copied it - for good reason. but no - apple has to reinvent the wheel and came up with a messed up hexagon.


I gained a reputation at my workplace for complaining about this.

Nonsense default behavior, slow as heck, search barely works, keybindings are totally illogical.

It's totally unacceptable.


Whenever I read comments like this, I know that it is someone that has switched from another OS. macOS is neither Windows, KDE or Gnome. An awful lot of the functionality that you deem 'nonsense' comes from the days of classic Macintosh and even from NeXTSTEP.

In fact, nearly all the complaints I see in this and similar threads come down to people expecting macOS to behave like their previous OS did, and being surprised that it doesn't.


It is just people being used to efficiency and interface improved over years to be ergonomic for users.

OS-X is surprising because there is a lot of marketing pretending that it is the most ergonomic when it is in fact the worst, and mostly it does not really improve other time.


"when it is in fact the worst"

That's very subjective. As a near 40-year user of Mac's, the consistency is quite remarkable. Mac OS 9 -> X was the biggest change, and even that was pretty consistent given just how different it actually was. After using Linux on and off for the last 20 or so years, I still prefer macOS when it comes to the crunch. It's not perfect, but to me at least, the best of a bad bunch.

Here's the thing; GNOME and KDE copied some bits from Mac OS, some bits from CDE/Motif, and a whole lot from Windows. The reason is obvious - familiarity and that IBM AT was largely the hardware people were installing these desktops on to. The "grandma test" (i.e. I taught my Gradma/Mum to use ${desktop}) is pointless. Instead, observe young children who have never seen a desktop computer interact with them. None of them fair well. IOS and to a very slight lesser degree, Adroid fair much better. All anecdotal, but do try it out - opens you're eye to just how bad the desktop is.

Real men prefer IRIX...


You may be interested in https://alt-tab-macos.netlify.app/


You made my day! This is one of the things that've been bugging me since I moved to Macos.. THANK YOU


I can recommend you to also use "Rectangle" app with that.


This is the first thing I recommend to new Mac users.


Thank you for sharing this!


> when I click a window, Mac OS brings to top all windows of the respective app

I don't have that, and I can't remember having done anything to stop it.


On Ventura here, and it only does that if you click the app icon on the dock or use Alt-Tab to switch apps. If you just click a window it does not bring all of the other windows from that app to the front.


> when I click a window, Mac OS brings to top all windows of the respective app

Do you mean Cmd + Tab? Because this doesn't happen for me at all. When I click on a window, just that window is focused, but if I Alt + Tab to an app all those windows come to the front, which I find annoying too.


Hijacking for a quick tip I'm not sure everyone is familiar with. On macOS, most know that Cmd + Tab will cycle through the open apps. Less well-known, Cmd + ` will cycle through windows within an app.


I'll never get over the fact that I had to pay $8 just to have two windows split side-by-side without using the obtuse and intrusive fullscreen mode.


Made an account just to reply.

I use https://rectangleapp.com/ on Mac and it's great. I mostly use shortcuts Left Half and Right Half, and also Maximize (Not the fullscreen mode thank God)

Might as well recommend enabling moving windows around with by clicking anywhere on the window with a keybind just like in most Linux desktop environments https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/321918/move-window...


I (personally) forked rectangle a few years back to give me thirds of a window, for a 32" display running in 4k@1x.

I use (basically) left, middle, right, and top half/bottom half.


Rectangle supports thirds, "two-thirds", fourths, "three-fourths", and sixths (top/bottom * thirds).


Must have happened after I made my changes. Would have been roughly 2020, based on when I got the monitor.


Rectangle had those options before 2020.


I appreciate that! When I switched to MacOS, I demoed both Rectangle and Magnet and found that, despite being paid software, Magnet offered a much more intuitive experience.

I'm happy to pay for software anyway, but after spending $4000 on a computer I expected such basic desktop manager features, which have been common since the 90s, to come with the package. This is not something extensions are supposed to do. This kind of crap is why I ditched GNOME.


Back when I was forced to use a Mac I used BetterTouchTool for this. It's a fantastic tool in general, and the window management is sensible.


$14 for Divvy (from Mizage) is beyond worth it, IME.


'Mac OS brings to top all windows of the respective app' - I bloody hate this behaviour.


It only does that if you click the app icon on the dock or use Alt-Tab to switch apps. If you just click a window it does not bring all of the other windows from that app to the front.


I can't reproduce this behavior so maybe it's changed in recent versions.


I switched to Windows/WSL because of this!!


Are you looking for this? https://hypercritical.co/front-and-center/ Found it further down the comments.


Yeah pretty much. I'm quite sure the behavior described as "modern" is what Mac OS X used to do when I had my first Mac ca 2003-2010.


On a second reading, that app is for switching on the "classic" behavior of bringing all windows to the top. There's something odd going on here as half the commenters, including me, complain about exactly that as undesired and what their Mac OS is doing without that app. Now which is it? Maybe is has to with using multiple monitors, like I'm doing? I've got to investigate more.


> Like when I click a window, Mac OS brings to top all windows of the respective app

It doesn't happen here with any of the app currently in use: Chrome, Finder, Terminal, Outlook, or Teams.


I guess that it is not what you want to hear, but just use a Linux desktop, like cinnamon!

Apple pretend to do ergonomic but their window manager is full of frustration. Using cinnamon is a breeze with everything working well as expected. Even having multi-screens and having apps in menu on the correct screen where they are located.

I usually have open multiple Firefox, console, folder, pdf windows and my life under os-x was a nightmare.

Impossible to have one bottom icon per window (I tried everything, even U-bar that was my hope is just garbage), to not have all windows of the same app open when you click on the icon like Firefox, having to do right click on the icon all the time to go from one window of console to the other, terminals having tabs and window mixed in the menu bar,...


Yeah thanks, actually I've left Linux for Mac OS, and while I do have Linux (and Windows) notebooks for specific needs I have no plans to return to it as my main machine. The reason is simply that I couldn't stand witnessing mainstream Linux desktop regressing into dysfunctionality for me (as in causing physical pain), and I'm sick of developers fetishizing de-facto proprietary containers, programming languages, system frameworks, or ideologies instead of creating apps I would actually want to use.


> when I click a window, Mac OS brings to top all windows of the respective app

https://imgur.com/a/mr1E2sW


tannhaeuser presumably talks about clicking the corresponding button in the dock. Although, granted, that's the "app" button.


It's been many years since I used a mac, but I feel like the alt+tab (mac+tab?) menu had this behavior also.



Yea I also hate that. If i have two terminals on two screens then click on one, all the terminals are now in the foreground and blocking the IDE/whatever…


Maybe this is something that was changed on recent versions of macos but I can't reproduce this. I've tried terminal, iterm, browser windows, etc.


It only happens when you click on the dock icon, not the app itself, i remembered it incorrectly.


I solve this (really nonsense) issue with Hammerspoon and this simple script:

    local hyper = {"ctrl", "alt", "cmd"}
    hs.loadSpoon("MiroWindowsManager")
    hs.window.animationDuration = 0.3
    spoon.MiroWindowsManager:bindHotkeys({
      up = {hyper, "up"},
      right = {hyper, "right"},
      down = {hyper, "down"},
      left = {hyper, "left"},
      fullscreen = {hyper, "f"}
    })


> [Expose] has completely lost any spatial determinism

Could you elaborate on that?


Not the OP, but I never know where a specific application will show up. Sometimes Chrome is on the left and my IDE is on the top right, sometimes it's the opposite. If it relates to the window location, I can't tell. Always mostly the same set of five or six applications, too.


Oh, you all mean when expose or whatever it's called shrinks the windows down and spreads them all out? Yeah, I've never found it a useful way to switch apps if I have more than a couple open. Visually searching for the window I want like that isn't fast for me, and if the windows get too small it's not helpful.


Original Expose ca 2003 minimised windows from their live positions on the regular desktop to thumbnails in a quick and smooth animation and would leave minimised thumbnails at different sizes resembling their relative live sizes and aspect ratio.




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