What do you win or get out of the attempts to rewrite atrocities like they have never happened in history? What did the victims that died that week do to you? https://imgur.com/a/q8ZIS
I'm Latin American and very, very happy we have China as an alternative to America's tyrannical Monroe Doctrine.
The demonization of China feels incredibly absurd, like when someone wearing an exceedingly ugly outfit, lacking self-awareness, tries to criticize someone else's fashion.
And yet you are writing it on an american website and no one is censoring you.
In China you have to be very careful of what you say and write, or you may just disappear from society, they don't need to kill anyone anymore, they even did it to former president, live. They remove you and that's it.
In America, working class people get killed by cops and corporations with little recourse.
In China, elites get disciplined by the party with little recourse.
It's a matter of which class you see yourself in.
>According to Harvard University’s large-scale 2003-2016 study tracking the evolution of public opinion via 32,000 individual respondents, at the time of the study’s conclusion “95.5 percent of respondents were either ‘relatively satisfied’ or ‘highly satisfied’ with Beijing.”
My friend's wife's family completely disappeared because they said something bad about the local government on WeChat. Their house was empty when she went to check up on them (after COVID). Neighbors said the police came in and they haven't seen them since. She now blames herself for not bringing them to Canada.
The reason the surveys are so high is because they fear it's a trap. If someone asks you if you like the government, your answer better be an outstanding yes.
This sort of flamewar will get you banned here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.
He isn't. State governors sued him over the potential loss in tax revenue and SCOTUS is likely going to rule against it because the court is stacked with right-wingers. Also see gun laws being nowhere near as strict as people would like, and Roe v. Wade being repealed, with hard anti-abortion laws and bans being enacted in states where a majority of citizens are pro-choice. The politics of the general American populace is far to the left of what the spectrum of "left" to "right" within the government allows.
The only citizens whose interests really matter in the US are conservatives, Christians and (of course, because the US is an oligarchy) billionaires. Everyone else is a serf who takes whatever scraps fall from the table.
I mean, Americans are bringing child labor back. Do you think the majority of Americans support child labor? No. Does it matter? No, because even with a Democrat (ostensibly 'leftist' but, being pro-military, pro-cop and anti-labor nowhere near it in practice) in charge, American laws are moving further right than ever.
So the Biden administration isn't really trying to cancel student debt? They are faking the attempt, secure in the knowledge that courts will strike it down? That sounds like an A-grade conspiracy theory to me.
> The only citizens whose interests really matter in the US are conservatives, Christians and (of course, because the US is an oligarchy) billionaires. Everyone else is a serf who takes whatever scraps fall from the table.
So all my non-conservative, non-Christian, non-billionaire Bay Area tech worker friends, who are doing very well for themselves, are "taking scraps"? Come on, that's ludicrous.
Your account was created 15 days ago and is used exclusively for posting inflammatory political nonsense. Also, you do realize that China is the most hyper-capitalist country in the world, don't you?
I'm just a communist programmer that hasn't been here for ages because I got bored of the hive-mind. Literally anything left-of-right-of-centre immediately gets flagged (if not outright banned by the mods), all in service of sheltering little liberal coder worker bees from scary labour propaganda.
I came back for a bit to get the latest on ChatGPT, and then noticed that, unsurprisingly, this place is crawling with demented Chinaphobes spreading whatever third-hand hearsay they can find about China. I'm vastly more knowledgeable about this subject than probably everyone here, and have tested my resources against way more capable critics, so sharing some disruptive well-chosen resources here and there isn't too hard.
The fact that the average stance here is something like "I'm not a Marxist, I don't like Marxism, I don't actually know much about Marxism, but I do know this: China isn't Marxist" is just hilarious to me.
Oh and then there's "Dang is a totalitarian liberal thought policeman", "banned every single prominent right winger", "extremely left-winged", "most people on HN are liberals", "socialist hell-hole", "this site leans left", "leftist bots", "always politically left", "skews quite left", "Obviously this website is rigged for the liberal agenda", "the level of wokeness is just absurd", "leftist ideological echo chamber", "run by radical leftists, so no surprise", and much more: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870.
Someone may get called lots of names from "both the left and the right."
It doesn't mean they have, therefore, achieved some kind of enlightened balance.
The fact that you can cite a lot of angry right-wingers trying to pull discourse in their direction through whining just means there's a lot of right wingers posting here trying to form critical mass, as one would expect given the composition of America as a country.
You don't get more of those kinds of critiques from communists because 1) there's barely any communists here and 2) we don't argue like that.
You've been badly stoking this thread with political and ideological flamewar. We ban accounts that do that. I actually just banned you but then changed my mind (I'll explain that below).
Lest anyone think I'm scolding you out of some ideological bias: I've personally spent countless hours defending users who have advocated minority perspectives (including on China), even when they've sometimes broken the site guidelines. That's not because I agree or disagree but because I understand how difficult it is to advocate for a minority view on the internet without getting attacked by mobs—and I don't like mobs. If you or anyone wants examples of how this has played out on China-related topics, I put this list together for a user about a year ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/chinamod.
So the problem isn't that you're arguing for a minority view—it's that you're doing it with snark and tropes and talking points. From that point of view your comments in this thread have been abusive. It seems clear that you're a seasoned internet flamewarrior with this stuff, because those skills only get honed over many years. For HN, this is a bad sign, because we're really trying for something else here (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).
If you would, however, please calibrate your HN comments to the intended use of the site, we'd really appreciate it. That means no snark, no flamewar, and no disrespect to others (specifically or in general) regardless of how wrong they are or you feel they are. I know lots of people routinely break those rules—I spend my days asking them not to. But we need users, and especially users with formidable internet powers, to resist the temptation to respond in kind. Otherwise we just get a downward spiral and this place will burn to a crisp.
No doubt HN is filled with comments that you personally disagree with and find offensive, but that's inevitable given that HN is a majority western community (albeit highly international) and that you hold minority views (within such a population) on provocative topics. I'm not asking you to change your views, but if you would please take care to avoid provoking or being provoked here in the future, we'd be grateful.
"Your sources are compromised, here's a quote from Fidel Castro and a random blog titled "China Has Billionaires" that doesn't actually talk about China at all, just "US is bad China opposes US therefore..."
Self-awareness is not your strong point. And your mix of conspiracy and partisan bile being challenged here is evidence this is a healthy online community, not the opposite. Perhaps you would feel better somewhere that confirms your beliefs instead of (rightly) mocks them.
You broke the site guidelines repeatedly and egregiously in this thread. We've had to warn you about this before, and if you keep it up we're going to have to ban you.
Edit: it also looks like your account is on the verge of using HN primarily for ideological battle. That's not allowed here, regardless of which ideology you're for or against, and we ban accounts that do it, so please don't do that. More explanation: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
With all due respect, i'm calmly pointing out another users' inflammatory comments and clear trolling. I wasn't overly polite to him, is the rule literally to take abuse and remain robotic in response? Not being cheeky, genuinely curious.
"Self-awareness is not your strong point" was an egregious personal attack. You can't do that here. Ditto for "You aren't as complicated as you think you are", "I'm pointing out what you are.", and plenty of other things you posted in this thread. If I look at those comments cumulatively, you crossed the line very badly. The fact that someone else was also behaving badly doesn't change that.
The rule is to stick to the rules (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) regardless of what someone else does. That's how rules work, no? No one's asking you to remain robotic, but you do need to remain respectful.
I'm having a lot of fun, actually. But you can keep pretending you know what you're talking about, citing Wikipedia. I guess from your perspective that's fun too.
>Since the man of common sense makes his appeal to feeling, to an oracle within his breast, he is finished and done with anyone who does not agree; he only has to explain that he has nothing more to say to anyone who does not find and feel the same in himself. In other words, he tramples underfoot the roots of humanity. For it is in the nature of humanity to press onward to agreement with others; human nature only really exists in an achieved community of minds.
Generally speaking when someone asks that question it is with an eye to disqualifying a speaker they don't want to listen to, on the basis of ad-hominem.
Latin America? "You're ignorant, you know nothing!"
China? "You're under their sway!"
America? "Hypocrite!"
I tend to prefer to simply not allow the discussion to veer in that direction, and keep people guessing if they must.
> I'm Latin American and very, very happy we have China as an alternative to America's tyrannical Monroe Doctrine.
It sounds like you don't understand your own history.
Latin America has excelled at destroying itself from the inside while blaming everything on anyone else --a national sport in most countries. Of course, the US is a favorite punching bag in LATAM.
Before you explode into "you don't know what you are talking about", my family had business in the US, Argentina, Peru and Ecuador throughout my entire young life. I lived there for years at a time. Went to school there. Was there during military rule. Etc. I know the history very well. Probably better than most natives because I was not in the grips of the intense reality-distortion-field (indoctrination) pushed onto the masses.
In fact, I call LATAM a time machine for the US.
Everything that has happened in the US over the last couple of decades was, in many forms, tried and tested in various LATAM countries before the shit ideologies arrived here. The problem here is that US students are so ignorant about the history of other part of the world that they actually believe shit like various socialist utopia stories. In a sane society people like Bernie and AOC would be laughed off the stage...because, at the very least, the shit they push has destroyed LATAM over the years.
If you want to get a dose of LATAM historial perspective and reality, take a break from ideology and watch a few presentations from Gloria Alvarez. Here's a video to get your started. This is a quick history of LATAM history starting with the "gifts" from Spain:
It's interesting to observe that pretty much every nation conquered by Spain ends-up, well, a mess. If one is to be honest, there's something to learn there.
Regarding China and LATAM: They are going to absolutely destroy every nation they touch. They are there to own all natural resources, extract as much juice as possible from every corner of LATAM. They will destroy all industrial capacity. The next logical outcome is LATAM economically enslaved to China. You shouldn't be happy about China's involvement in LATAM, you should be horrified.
I think GP is delusional, but you're not seriously suggesting Latin American countries vilify the US for no reason, right?
US interventions in Latin American affairs are well documented[1].
You can't just kick the can to Spain, when the US had a much more direct and recent involvement. It doesn't seem you learned much from your time there, as this history is discussed openly and known in detail, from school children to people who actually lived it. The resentment towards the US is very well deserved, in most cases.
Regardless, this is not a thread about the US, so let's not feed GP's whataboutism, and keep acknowledging how evil China is.
It's fitting that you tried to cozy up to that American guy by 1) demonizing a fellow Latin American, a 2) regurgitating American lies you've heard about China and never scrutinized, and that your reward for it was being treated like a still-too-uppity subject.
> you're not seriously suggesting Latin American countries vilify the US for no reason
I am stating an absolute fact:
In LATAM, blaming others for everything is a national sport. And the US is a favorite bad guy. I can't tell you how many times I have heard this in person in the context of social gatherings, local news and even government/political party communications.
The point is they blame it all on the US. Always.
I did not say the US and other nations have no fault at all. There are subtle and not-so-subtle dynamics at play here.
It's funny how is never their fault. Ever. I guess these are all perfectly run nations and big-bad-USA comes in and fucks them up all the time. Otherwise, it's pink unicorns and bubble-gum for everyone. Right.
World politics being what they are, yes, of course, countries will take advantage of each other when possible. There is no way to claim any nation is without fault in any comparison. Today, China is taking advantage of LATAM in more ways than one...and the people actually think it is a good thing.
The other thing you have to remember is that LATAM governments have been corrupt forever. Entire generations of political families have enriched themselves and their extended circles at the expense of the people and countries. They make deals with countries like the US and international corporations and then turn-around and royally shaft the entire nation. The easiest way to explain things not working when you steal hundreds of millions of dollars and ruin the country is to blame others.
Stories abound of LATAM governments inviting external investment only to later nationalize the companies boosted by this investment and kicking the investors out. They appoint brothers, cousins, family members, extended allies, military leaders to run and pillage the companies and enrich the ecosystem that supports them. Then they turn around and blame others, the US, the IMF, anyone.
I mean, the military government of Argentina invented an entire war over islands nobody gave a shit about just to defocus from the horrors they created.
So, yes, blaming the US for everything isn't only unfair, it's stupid. These countries would have done far better over time had they made an effort to create solid lasting partnerships with the US. Quite a few of these countries could have been manufacturing hubs for world products. That requires focus, hard work, dedication, stability and more. The US and Europe would have gladly outsourced such work to LATAM nations. It didn't happen because the corruption in these nations turned them into sad circus acts everyone took advantage of whenever they could. I know it hurts to put it this way, yet this is the truth.
Trust is a delicate thing. Once you lose it, the only people who are going to engage with you are those who are going to ensure ROI by taking every possible advantage. And you have zero negotiating power. Once again, I point to what China is doing in LATAM.
> You can't just kick the can to Spain, when the US had a much more direct and recent involvement.
Not kicking that can so Spain at all. Spain's legacy is a culture of corruption and a range of social issues Gloria Alvarez discusses in detail in the video I posted. I have not been able to find a version in English, sorry.
You are missing the important point: The blame for all negative outcomes in LATAM is alway, always, always outward-facing.
If you observe what they are saying you’d think these are perfect societies where everyone would have pink unicorns and bubble gum, were it not for external evil actors. And, of course, the US and the IMF are at the top of the blame list.
I can't imagine literally submitting a House.gov link and some gusana YouTube clip link to try to tell a Latin American that they need to side with the U.S., to save themselves from China.
> I can't imagine literally submitting a House.gov link and some gusana YouTube clip link to try to tell a Latin American that they need to side with the U.S
Second, if you studied Logic at all (obviously not) you would understand that attacking the source is one of the fundamental logical fallacies. In other words, you have no point at all. You can't insult Alvarez and point to House.gov and invalidate what they are saying.
And, of course, calling a woman trying hard to make a difference in LATAM a "worm" is really classy on your part.
Por favor, educate porque realmente no tenes idea de lo que esta pasando en America Latina. Ni idea.
Thank you for your comment with relevant citations. The dominant version of the story in western circles is too often accepted uncritically. There are many other elements to consider. Same for many stories regarding China.
I hope you were paid more than 50 cents for all the bootlicking you have been engaging in through this thread. If the West is as bad as you say, please just move to China and leave the rest of us alone.
We've banned this account for egregiously breaking the site guidelines and ignoring our request to stop. You can't post like this here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are, and the site guidelines are entirely clear about it: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
Normally I would post a warning rather than ban you for this, but it looks like your account has been using HN primarily for ideological battle, and that's a line at which we ban accounts, especially when (as is the case here) we'd already asked you to stop. (Btw we do this regardless of which ideology the account is battling against or for.)
You broke the site guidelines egregiously with this (and also with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35233124 - we can't have users attacking other users based on where they're from). I actually did ban you, but changed my mind after I looked through your comment history and didn't see you having made a habit of this.
You can't do this here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are, and the site guidelines are quite clear about it. No more of this, please.
My only comment on that matter would be that one need not reside in any particular location to work for the CCP, they have workers all over the world, from many different backgrounds. I wasn’t implying that he/she was of any particular ethnicity, race, or nationality - not have I denigrated such. To further that point, I then asked where they were from to gain perspective on their comments, there was nothing insulting meant in my asking. (I actually meant to go back and change the accusation of working for CCP comment, and overlooked it.) However, it did seem like they were a new account, with comments not made in good faith (imo), and they were pushing a distinct CCP narrative that I see often in my research in this topic.
Thank you for taking a balanced hand to moderation here. I understand it can’t be easy.
"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data."
Internet users are far too quick to accuse others of manipulation/astroturfing/etc.* When we dig into the data we nearly always find that someone is simply posting from a different background than the majority here. Different backgrounds lead people to have different views. No doubt there does exist conscious manipulation and abuse; but the dangers of mob effects coming from users who feel like they're seeing that, and then gang up on someone who actually is just coming from a different background, are much more of a threat to the community.
* I mean on political/ideological questions and the like; user intuition tends to be more accurate when it comes to people promoting products and so on - though the two bleed together in the case of big corps and that's a separate thing again.
